How Republics End (w/ Mike Duncan)
Added 2025-01-28 12:01:52 +0000 UTCA stock rhetorical trope on the right is to invoke ancient Rome when talking about American decline—often making direct comparisons between the Goth invaders and contemporary immigrants, obsessing over homosexuality and Rome's fall, and more. If their understanding of history isn't very serious, what should we make of these appeals? And are there any "lessons" we should learn from Roman history?
There's no better time to take up such matters than while Matt is in Rome, and there was no one better for him to talk with about them than Mike Duncan, the prolific and brilliant history podcaster; he currently hosts the Revolutions podcast and, especially relevant for the purposes of this conversation, hosted the History of Rome podcast from 2007-2012, a project that led him to write The Storm Before the Storm: The Beginning of the End of the Roman Republic (2017). Matt and Mike discuss the use and abuse of history, how "norms" do and do not matter, the relationship between imperialist foreign policy and domestic politics, the perils of vast income inequality, then and now, and more.
Sources:
For quotes from conservatives about Roman decline: Reagan, Nixon, Buchanan, Vance (and Pete Navarro & Michael Anton)
Mike Duncan, The Storm Before the Storm (2017)
— Hero of Two Worlds: The Marquis de Lafayette in the Age of Revolution (2021)
Comments
I love love love Mike Duncan. I’ve spent so much time listening to him it’s insane. Also, it was to a large part thanks to the hundreds of hours of listening to him that I realized I’m actually a leftie and not a liberal.
Nimportequi
2025-02-04 07:11:00 +0000 UTCI think I figured out what Elon might be up to…. Bad, but maybe not for the reasons we first feared. https://open.substack.com/pub/chadbailey291184/p/gaming-out-scenarios-for-doge-impacts?r=4j5qp&utm_medium=ios
Chad Bailey
2025-02-04 01:45:37 +0000 UTCMike Duncan @ 48:58: “One of the things we have going for us right now is that there is a central treasury that pays the armed forces…Elon Musk cannot command an army.” :(
Brooke Chappell
2025-02-03 02:30:32 +0000 UTCGreat stuff! I know it's cliche but it's striking how closely Plato is dead on with his description of the Tyrant as it relates to Trump with emphasis on erotic desire, impulses, and the ego (colloquial sense). Chinese history is also super interesting for the changes in dynasties like the transition between the Ming & Qing periods.
Martin Oswald
2025-02-02 22:31:07 +0000 UTCWowowow - need more of this. Please.
Boksberger
2025-02-01 16:41:14 +0000 UTCThe crossover I didn't know I needed. Loved Mike's point about norms.
Stephen Caruso
2025-01-31 23:12:30 +0000 UTCDisaster Nationalism with Richard Seymour. Just saying.
his eyes just tell him lies
2025-01-31 04:15:13 +0000 UTCThis was so cool - Mike is the podcasting GOAT, everything is so digestible. Storm before the storm is an awesome book.
Mike Dugan
2025-01-30 16:12:50 +0000 UTCHello Matthew. Can you please ask Michael the following question : “hello. when the goths invaded Rome did any of the goth girls step on any Roman mens faces. And is there any ancient paintings of it? Thank you.”
Sam
2025-01-30 15:29:05 +0000 UTCHave you guys done any sort of South Bend-classicish/Poundbury/Trump-GSA episode yet? Maybe I’m forgetting. Apologies, this is my brain on Rome. Noodling at edges of the thing a few years back, making myself ill: https://pdbowman.studio/quareidfaciam/among-the-nazis/
Paul Bowman
2025-01-30 04:49:06 +0000 UTCCheck out the History of Byzantium podcast if you get to the end of Duncan’s podcast and want more Roman history.
erik w bjorke
2025-01-30 01:59:08 +0000 UTCRoman citizenship and Roman identity become so expansive that they don’t even require the city itself to be sustained.
erik w bjorke
2025-01-30 01:21:28 +0000 UTCthe mike duncan / kye crossover is legitimately a dream come true. i'm so used to mike in the solo / monologue register that it's just like . . . interesting to hear him have a conversation.
Adriano Iqbal
2025-01-30 00:59:52 +0000 UTCI misread this title as “How Republicans End” and was like FUCK YEAH. (I still give the real topic a lower case fuck yeah tho)
Tim Combes
2025-01-29 21:14:59 +0000 UTCMike Duncan is an absolute hero #1 podcaster
Odella
2025-01-29 20:12:05 +0000 UTCAs someone very late to getting into Revolutions as I'm currently working me way through it, this episode was a real thrill! And certainly convinced to pick up The Storm before the Storm sooner rather than later as this whole discussion was fascinating
Brendan Kane
2025-01-29 15:09:50 +0000 UTCBest crossover since Urkel was on Full House. You could have a great follow up with Mike discussing Sam’s Beautiful Losers article
Greg Baltz
2025-01-29 04:27:11 +0000 UTCMike Duncan is ALWAYS a tour de force. Two of the best podcasters here talking was like a preview of paradise.
Chad Bailey
2025-01-29 02:22:59 +0000 UTCHoly crap!!! More Revolutions!!! Cuban!!! Iranian!!!
erik w bjorke
2025-01-29 01:41:19 +0000 UTCHe’s phenomenal. Rich storyteller
Kyle Mitchell
2025-01-29 00:20:40 +0000 UTCDamn, now I have to hear a whole Roman podcast this guy is aweosme
Sam
2025-01-29 00:10:01 +0000 UTCTo me the human nature/condition claim is spot-on (including Matt’s clarification). The more I read of history, the more I’m convinced of its accuracy. I agree he could’ve said more about the decadence claim though. Even though some right wingers themselves typify the decadence as deviant sexuality. (Cf. leftists who liken America to Rome as an empire about to collapse also speaking of decadence, though obviously focusing on different examples).
Axel Herrera
2025-01-28 23:25:34 +0000 UTCMIKE DUNCAN!! Haven’t even started the interview and already I’m head over heels!
Chad Bailey
2025-01-28 21:57:09 +0000 UTCWow my two favorite podcasts crossing over!! Woo!
Kyle Mitchell
2025-01-28 21:35:15 +0000 UTCFixed, thanks!
mjs
2025-01-28 21:11:38 +0000 UTCI listened to Revolutions compulsively several years ago. Upon hearing Mike's voice, I had a very fond pavlovian reaction!
Craig Lammes
2025-01-28 21:05:36 +0000 UTCMike Duncan is one of the greatest podcasters ever — maybe one of the best public educators as well. I’m so excited for this
Nick Wood
2025-01-28 19:51:09 +0000 UTCFYI typo in the description, it misstates Mike's book as "The *Story* Before the Storm" instead of "Storm Before the Storm"
caku
2025-01-28 19:36:16 +0000 UTCthe one good notification on my phone this morning
John grant
2025-01-28 19:32:18 +0000 UTCWas a bit disappointed by Duncan’s analysis. Was hoping for a more rigorous grappling with these historical analogies pedaled by the right. But he seemed to be strawmanning them. The fall of the Roman Empire was because of homosexuals? I don’t think that’s really what they means— it’s a kind of shorthand for a Weimar style decline into ‘decadence’. Would’ve been much more interesting and useful to really tear into that. And his perennial position on human nature— totally ahistorical. Nonetheless interesting overall. Thanks y’all
Nnnnnn
2025-01-28 19:16:31 +0000 UTCOMG. This is super. There are so many threads History Podcaster God Michael Duncan is pulling out here you could make a sweater. kid and I are huge MD fans! Thanks
edward ripple
2025-01-28 18:46:33 +0000 UTCRevolutions is basically my favorite podcast, for all the reasons (plus more!) that you mention! (Matt)
Know Your Enemy
2025-01-28 17:46:19 +0000 UTCMy favorite podcasts coming together. I cannot recommend Revolutions enough (I know this is more about Rome, that one is great, too). Revolutions honestly changed the way I see our modern world, Mike does such a great job of going in depth but also keeping a narrative going that makes it feel like you are listening to a story. I had never studied the French Revolution, so Mike's season on it had my jaw on the floor.
Weston Awtry
2025-01-28 17:39:13 +0000 UTCSpeaking for myself, I think "this kind of episode" is one we're inclined to do more of in the months and years ahead—conversations that range widely and just try to get us to think in more interesting and creative ways, ideally! (Matt)
Know Your Enemy
2025-01-28 17:37:13 +0000 UTCThank you, love this kind of episode. I have been thinking this podcast can always use some venturing outside of its prescribed era and geography of interest. Given the right’s history, myths and references obviously have much deeper roots than just the National Review and anti-New Deal reaction. Since ancient Rome was broadly covered in this episode, what about an episode on the other conservative history nerd obsession, our own “elders” the US founding fathers (who were fascinated with ancient Rome themselves)? Which would perhaps be an occasion to address some liberals’ bizarre and somewhat misplaced lionization of Hamilton as some kind of progressive hero (reading a fascinating book on Hamilton by William Hogeland, who lays out a very detailed counterpoint to the narrative underpinning the musical). Or a look at the origins of conservatism circa late 1700s and early 1800s (French Revolution, Edmund Burke, Chateaubriand…). Anyhow, AVE KYE
Paul Lemaire
2025-01-28 17:24:44 +0000 UTC2 of my favorite pods collide!
SchemaThings
2025-01-28 17:18:40 +0000 UTCKnow Your Enemy x History of Rome! Christmas came late (or early!) this year!
Richard Marshall
2025-01-28 17:04:13 +0000 UTCIt’s funny I was just thinking about this possibility (Matt)
mjs
2025-01-28 15:52:54 +0000 UTCOh this is so good!! Also- would love to see an episode on McKinley at some point given Trump’s obsession. I hadn’t thought about McKinley since the 9th grade, who on earth told Trump about him??
Ann K
2025-01-28 15:45:13 +0000 UTCSo so good but French Revolution ep (especially exploring the Terror) when????
Jenna Harmon
2025-01-28 14:58:17 +0000 UTCThanks Lorna, as someone who is most definitely not an expert on Roman history, I was nervous—but Mike was so good, and I'm glad you liked it. (Matt)
Know Your Enemy
2025-01-28 14:42:29 +0000 UTCReally great.
Lorna Spencer
2025-01-28 14:28:58 +0000 UTCI’m so happy to see my three best friends together
MCro
2025-01-28 12:32:47 +0000 UTC😍
Matthew Reyes
2025-01-28 12:14:18 +0000 UTCHell yeah kings
Horseloverfat
2025-01-28 12:05:28 +0000 UTC
