Who Is Ellen - 72 - HD
Added 2022-12-15 04:00:03 +0000 UTCPERSUASION!
Commentary
There are potential arguments to be had when it comes to characters persuading Non-Player Characters, and I think they come down to Player Skill Vs Character Skill.
Larry the player doesn't necessarily have the skills to make an ultra-persuasive argument, but Larry the bard definitely does.
Does Larry the player need to be able to present their argument skillfully, or does Larry simply say what he wants to argue, and roll to see how well it goes?
I've heard of game masters handling this in different ways, such as having the difficulty of the check be affected by how well the player makes their case, or players getting a bonus to their roll if they act exceptionally well.
Or, of course, just let player making clear what their character wants to argue, and rolling to see how well they do.
It's one of those things that I assume boils down to the players, and what the group finds the most fun.
I'm also assuming there are rules on how to handle such situations, but it's also my understanding that groups will wind up having their own rules for such things.
Comments
Or maybe skeleton workers did not understand the instructions...
Alexis Darbon
2022-12-16 18:29:27 +0000 UTCPersonally, I prefer to always have there be a roll if you are trying to convince an NPC to do something they weren't already going to do. Doing otherwise in my opinion devalues Charisma as a stat. I don't get to do a deadlift to demonstrate that my character can definitely lift a boulder without making a roll. Or draw a chalk line and jump across it to demonstrate that my character can definitely leap a chasm without making a roll. Judgement calls of "Well that was a very convincing argument that definitely would work, so no roll" means a charismatic player with Charisma as their dump stat can become more consistently successful as the party face than an un-charismatic player with a high charisma score. Of course, to allow people to still have the fun of roleplaying, what I do is roll first to see how the attempt goes, then act out the conversation with the end result in mind. It can be a lot of fun to roll a 2 on a speech meant to inspire and rile up the masses, then act out a terrible corny speech that convinces no one.
Changer
2022-12-16 10:47:50 +0000 UTCMore like we were pandering to the DM's morbid sense of humor. It turned into a grim fairytale of sorts. We kept coming across different versions of that story everywhere we went through out the campaign: The head mistress was a lich and turned the children into her undead minions A beholder moved in and mind controlled the rest of the town into feeding it every day The children were a pack of feral lychanthrops and had to be put down A cult completed a dark ritual that infested the orphanage with devils and demons The children were secretly mindflayers that psionically convinced the rest the town they were children A vampire turned the children into their vampiric spawn and plotted to turn the town into a vampire utopia The children were actually goblins wearing human skin Every week was like listening to The Joker ask "Have I ever told you how I got these scars?" It was pretty fantastic!
wargrunt42
2022-12-16 05:18:21 +0000 UTCTrue, but I think you may have missed my point. I'd adjust the DC based on that, with a higher DC for what should be a harder sell, but I wouldn't require the player to do more than tell me what argument they are making, unless they wanted to. In a (potential) game changing event like being locked up by the guards, however, if they don't want to RP the event then that DC is going to be very high and if they do well it'll go down to match. That's on top of whatever the base DC would be, of course. I don't recommend it for every group or even most groups but we are two and a half years into this campaign and had two gears into my last one so there is a level of familiarity and comfort between them and me and between the each of them.
AstroChaos
2022-12-15 23:56:40 +0000 UTCYou know, there are orphanages and there are orphanages. Maybe this was an orphanage for orphaned pit fiends.
Some Ed
2022-12-15 23:26:54 +0000 UTCI tend to see most of the bonus and penalty adjustments for the players RPing their persuasion check to be missing the point of the skill roll. Getting the players to be clear about exactly what they're asking for is good. I've had and seen too many arguments based on the players thinking "persuade the quest giver to tell us more" meant "the quest giver will tell us everything if we succeed this one check." Now, I *will* give bonuses or penalties based on *what* the players are asking for. If they're trying to get the quest giver to give them directions to the quest location, which the quest giver merely didn't think to tell them because "aren't you guys local? I've been seeing you around a lot lately." then they succeed on anything over 1. But if they're trying to get the quest giver to spill the dirt on himself, that's going to be a tough sell.
Some Ed
2022-12-15 23:18:20 +0000 UTCI'd think shaving 10 gold off his price may not be the same depending on exactly how much the item cost. It's going to be much harder to get a merchant to shave 10 gold off the price of a 2s 10' pole than it would be to get him to shave 10 gold off of a 1010 gold suit of "magical" armor. (Note: this is technically actually magical. Just, its only magical ability is to appear magical. That is, appear *very* magical. The merchant knows this, the players do not. [Casting identify on goods you haven't yet purchased is rude, you know.])
Some Ed
2022-12-15 23:10:56 +0000 UTC@Diego Rossi: I could see it going either way. I think it's probably more likely most PCs who end up in court would be defendants or speaking on behalf of the defendant, but I do recall witnessing a game where the players caught an evil doer, bound them, and took them to the king for judgement. This seemed to be a good idea at the time. The quest they were on was "to bring $x to justice." Literally exactly what the king's aide (aka the quest giver) had directed the players to do. As I recall, it did not turn out to have in fact been a good idea, as the perp happened to be a relative. As such, the players discovered they were guilty of manhandling royalty in public. Not their finest moment. (It can be helpful to know *who* you're dragging in front of the king. It can also be helpful to know when to seek a private audience with the king rather than a public one, with the perp safely trapped in a portable hole or something so nobody sees you dragging them in.)
Some Ed
2022-12-15 23:05:10 +0000 UTC"Everyone is laughing, and assumes the orphanage bit is a satire."
Crissa Kentavr
2022-12-15 20:15:24 +0000 UTCDoing a bonus to the persuasion roll based on what the player manages to do is standard in Champions; when you do a 'Presence Attack' (which is the standard intimidation method but can be used for persuasion as well) you get bonus dice by GM fiat if you play it well.
Jenora Feuer
2022-12-15 16:52:40 +0000 UTCBeing intentionally vague can be fun as well: "Gather around and hear the tale of how we were forced to spend the night in jail..." *rolls Perform Oratory* *Nat 20* "... And that my friends is how we heroically slaughtered the orphanage and saved the day!" It was an awe inspiring tall tale that quickly spread through out the land. Leaving it to the imagination of how you got from point A to B can be a great way to drive the narrative! Because of that story, we were summoned by the arch-duke and were handsomely paid to go questing on his behalf. It all just depends on what the situation calls for. Sometimes it pays to be loosey goosey, other times you really need to specify what you want to accomplish and how you intend to do it. This comic is a good example of the latter.
wargrunt42
2022-12-15 12:10:21 +0000 UTCI fall on the character skill side of things when I GM, if having persuasive skill is something that you can invest in. I don't care how well Adrian the player can deliver an inspiring speech, I care how much Kra'ki the Aarokcoca monk with 6 Charisma can. It's not like we make our players describe each sword swing or act out casting spells. I'll still want an overview of what you want and how you plan to get it, but you don't need an actual argument.
Constantine
2022-12-15 07:33:16 +0000 UTCMore of less the same thing that my group do. We give a bonus/penalty to the roll based on the quality of the argument and possibly a bonus (but not a penalty) based on how well it is played by the player. In some instance the attempt is an automatic success, based on the character skills.
Diego Rossi
2022-12-15 07:26:17 +0000 UTCYes, generally as the defendant attorney.
Diego Rossi
2022-12-15 07:23:40 +0000 UTCBards get to pick their entertainment skill, such as playing the lute, juggling, dancing or whatever. In one game, the GM let me pick telling duck jokes for my skill. Each time I had to roll for success, I told a duck joke. Fortunately, I had actually written a book on duck jokes, so I had enough for the evening. :)
Erin Halfelven at BigCloset
2022-12-15 05:48:42 +0000 UTCI think that's the best strategy. Let the player give the basic gist of the argument, and make any bonuses or penalties rest on that (like, mentioning things that have been established to be important to the NPC, but insulting them will likely make things harder). Then let the die roll and skill bonus determine how well the character made the argument.
John Beattie
2022-12-15 04:41:31 +0000 UTCThe GMs in my usual group tend to ask the player to come up with the general strategy of how they're trying to convince the character to do something, and then (unless it's quite clearly a persuasive argument), the player then rolls to see if they succeed, and GM uses the strategy to determine _how_ they succeed for fail. This is pretty much how we handle other skill checks. Personally, I find it fun to sometimes play a character who has top-tier charisma and convincing skills, even though I personally have trouble arguing my way out of a paper bag. I'd find it less enjoyable if my supposedly-very-charming character regularly failed at persuasion because their player was tongue-tied.
Brooks Moses
2022-12-15 04:30:53 +0000 UTCMy players know to expect more RP than combat in my campaigns, mostly, so if they want to be persuasive then THEY need to be persuasive. Though it really depends on the critically of why they are doing it... Trying to get a merchant to shave 10 gold off his price is really no more than a roll and a few words explaining why they should. Trying to convince the guards to not toss your murder hoboing ass in prison and toss the keys... ya better come prepared to RP to the best of your abilities as you make that roll!
AstroChaos
2022-12-15 04:18:41 +0000 UTCyou made me laugh
allanfranta
2022-12-15 04:10:04 +0000 UTCI have no objection.
Dan Merget
2022-12-15 04:07:40 +0000 UTCHmm. Anyone ever see a bard serve as an attorney?
Stephen Gilberg
2022-12-15 04:02:49 +0000 UTC
