Buffy The Vampire Slayer "Seeing Red" 6x19 Reaction
Added 2021-07-20 03:35:33 +0000 UTC
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PASSWORD: Geekedoutnation
Season 1
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fcsj95ru3hxl5o8/AAAwW5wWLxXIniFyMfcqiOcMa?dl=0
Season 2
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Season 3
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Season 4
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Season 5
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Comments
Nah, Spike story made perfect sense. It's not up for debate that he is evil right now. The chip in his head created a strange situation that other vamps haven't experienced. He was forced to live as though he was good, and this allowed elements of his true self to grow in a way that is not normal. But in the end the parasite demon in him was still there, and his soul which is the only thing that can nullify this evil is still gone. His chip stopped him from killing, and Buffy ending up in a kind of relationship for a while meant that his true self continued to grow more and the evil was stuck and looked like it was "better" due to a lack of opportunity to show itself. The scene here is where the true corrupted love it gives him finally showed itself. And it's the first time his new and uniquely grown true self is confronted with the evil that has been subdued with no opportunity. It makes his growth more important, the fact that he was able to confront this, understand it, and snap out of it makes the scene a great development point while making perfect sense that it happened. Without something this extreme causing the confrontation and conflict between what has grown in him, and the true evil at his core, then Spike later getting a soul makes no sense.
MichaelB
2023-04-26 02:13:30 +0000 UTCSo for me people's reactions to this episode is frustrating. Yes, Spike tried to rape Buffy and I'm not minimizing that that was horrible for Buffy. That said, Willow actually DID rape Tara and everyone's rooting for them to get back together. Rape within relationships and even marriage is something that happens a lot and never gets talked about. The scene with Spike was a violent assault and we heard Buffy begging him to stop and that's disturbing to watch. But Willow basically gave Tara the magical equivalent of a date rape drug (the memory spell) so she'd forget all he inhibitions and the reasons she had set a boundary and said she couldn't be with Willow while she was addicted and acting like she was. She didn't feel safe with Willow and Willow removed her ability for informed consent. In real life rape within "loving" relationships can be as confusing and traumatizing as violent rape if not more because people react like this. They feel and are often told that it can't have been that bad or traumatizing since it was just having sex again with someone they've slept with consensually. If their bodies respond naturally in a positive manner to the stimulus it's like it's their fault or it couldn't have traumatized them if they enjoyed it physically. Victims like this often get more blame and guilt and stigma. Yet everyone wants Tara back with Willow and forgives Wil cuz she's cute and funny and the power dynamic in the relationship isn't obvious. But Willow didn't acknowledge or fully apologize for rape. She doesn't realize she violated Tara an and when Tara tells her that's what happened she protests. With Spike and Buffy, he clearly realized the second she stopped him what he had tried to do and he tries to change so he will never do anything like that again. If Willow relapsed how would Tara trust she wouldn't do the same thing? Willow, like Warren, did this horrible thing as a human. Yet for Willow this is the catalyst to becoming the big bad. For Spike, this moment is a wake up call to be better (no spoilers since you're already into season 7).
Leora Nechama
2022-01-02 22:44:01 +0000 UTCP.S. I never found Xander charming. He was possessive as hell since season 1. I’d never once assume I have any right to even KNOW about my bestie’s intimate private life unless she wanted to tell me, let alone have an actual say in what she does with it. Xander has always assumed he has that right with both Buffy AND Willow. He’s always been a misogynistic, problematic character. The fact that everyone keeps saying he’s the one who needs time when he’s the one who dumped Anya on her wedding day is bull. The fact that they keep apologizing to him is infuriating. The fact that Buffy straight up told him that he was right and she should have gone up to him and said, Hey, Xander. I’m currently having sex with someone and I feel like you should know about it so you can give me your two cents about it” is just pure nonsense. Joss Whedon has said multiple times that Xander is his self insert into the Buffyverse and knowing what we know about him now, it makes sense why Xander is supposed to be the good guy but is so problematic. No thanks, Whedon.
Nyssa Rawther 🍉
2021-08-14 18:20:28 +0000 UTCYeah, I was PISSED and super heartbroken when Tara died. So much so that I don’t watch season 6 past the previous episode during rewatches. Watched it once and didn’t wanna relive the trauma. I didn’t focus so much on how she died, I was just upset they chose to kill her at all. The Spike thing was a ridiculous plot. Like, they made this decision to have Spike be this soulless creature who can still feel love, right? Dru once said that vamps do feel love too. And it’s Canon that a person’s true nature gets more pronounced as a vamp. To me, it’s why party boy and all around louse Liam became psycho weirdo Angelus, and why poet William who only wanted love became this needy vamp always falling for women who can’t love him back just as intensely. But then they put a chip in his head, making him step back from all the killing he can’t do, gave him some character development by making him kinda a Scooby ally, have him literally do anything to protect Dawn, even after Buffy died...He CRIED when she died. So many things he was doing and so many things he was feeling that Angelus was never capable of or even wanted...Only to have such weird violent back and forth between Spike and Buffy. The story behind it was that it’s used to explain the attempted rape, He was so used to the back and forth of “go away Spike, I don’t want you/yes you do/no I really don’t you’re disgusting/shut up you love me/*punch-kick-kiss-have sex* that he literally had no clue that he was attempting rape until Buffy kicked him and he kinda “snapped out of it”. BUT THAT’S A COP OUT. The way they’d written Spike up to this point, he wouldn’t have ever done that. There were never any inclinations of rape in his past. And maybe s2 Spike would have been this violent towards Buffy, but not s6. Not in this way. It was such a weird choice, so very unlike the character they’d given him post season 4 and beyond that it was just such a shock. I get that they wanted to get Spike to his lowest before he went off on his little quest but c’mon. Unnecessary, and you were right, there is A LOT of rape fantasy going on in this episode that I just never picked up on as a child, cringey, Joss Whedon.
Nyssa Rawther 🍉
2021-08-14 18:13:00 +0000 UTCSo, then there was that episode. Probably, well no, definitely the most hated episode in Buffy. Season 6 up to this point was a pretty hard pill for many to swallow, and this really didn't help. I personally don't dislike it like most. I actually quite like this season. I understand why many don't. Yes, the Trio is pathetic and annoying. A bunch of bumbling idiots, who have supposedly been the big bad of the season. Well, in my mind, aside from the big bad part, that exactly what they were intended to be. You mention about how we could have killed them so many times up till now, but they kept getting back burnered. That's the point though. They had to be this pathetic to keep being back burnered up till now. This season was all about the characters breaking apart at the seams and trying to rebuild themselves. Usually when people deal with the types of things they've been dealing with, part of the process is to get selfish. To be introspective and focusing on yourself to find the broken parts and deal with them. The show is the show though. A big bad must be had, or at least a facsimile of one. Since the crew are needing to be so focused on themselves, they needed an enemy so pathetic and bad that, first they don't even notice them for a while, and then secondly they assign them a low priority. For what this season was trying to do, they were pretty much the perfect enemy. The character's lives were so depressed and dark, that they also provided comic relief. Heck, Buffy actually went to the Bronze to die in Once More with Feeling. To bring Buffy so low as to contemplate suicide by demon, you're going to need some comic relief around.
Jordan Haddow
2021-08-02 11:21:20 +0000 UTCIt gets me every fucking time. 😭
Gwenhwyfar Aine
2021-07-30 22:24:31 +0000 UTCThis end was a super shok to the fans at the aart but thats what was planed
Tammy L. Faulkner
2021-07-26 01:13:07 +0000 UTCAs wrong as Xander is in most scenes, I always liked his talk with Buffy at the end (before everything hit the fan). Both he and Buffy were open about their feelings, stated why they were hurt, and acknowledged, not that their actions were wrong, but how they could have acted differently. All ending with statements focused on the love between friends, which at the time wasn't often represented in movies and TV between a heterosexual man and woman. I also liked how Jonathan helped both Xander and Buffy. While he is not strong enough to directly stand up to warren, by helping Xander not get beaten to death and Buffy destroy the orbs, he in a small way denounced Warren's plans and actions.
Quantoto
2021-07-25 02:12:48 +0000 UTCAlso, Spike's attempted rape is not really out of character. He said to get Dru back in season 3 he'd just find her, tie her up and torture her till she loved him again. Then in season 5, he electrocuted Buffy and chained her up to force her to admit he had a chance with her. So, rape - as horrendous as it is - is not that far removed from his character. Dude should be dead.
Shayne-Ark
2021-07-23 09:25:51 +0000 UTCThat Buffy and Spike scene was so cringe smh
Daniel R
2021-07-21 06:03:39 +0000 UTCYeah, to be frank, I like this season less and less the more I re-watch it (it's still in my top 3, though). I get the season, completely, and I don't even have a problem with the Trio because I understand their purpose. But there were some choices made that really don't do the characters nor the story justice - choices that were seemingly only made due to (and which reveal...) the mindset/worldview of the creator...to the detriment of the show and its "message". For example: because we know that Xander is Joss' self-insert (he has said so himself), we know that he intends for us to sympathise with Xander and to see Xander as Right All Along about Buffy's shortsightedness when it comes to Spike. He was right to take his paternalistic attitude regarding Buffy's s*x-life, because look what happened. Buffy forgot who Spike really was deep down, and in the end he tried to r*pe her. That seems to be the message. To me, the attempted r*pe scene makes perfect sense, as it was a reminder that Spike does not "love" Buffy - he is merely obsessed with, and wants to possess, her. What puts a sour taste in my mouth about it is the lecture Xander gives Buffy prior to it, and the fact that it was Xander who discovered her in the aftermath. I'd never really noticed before just how strong the unspoken "told you so" vibes are. And I agree with you that it would have been better if Xander had been shot instead of Tara. Let the lesbians be happy, for goodness' sake. I know that something needed to happen in order to push Willow over the edge and conclude her addiction arc, but surely Xander's death would have also produced that effect. She's known him since kindergarten. They're BFFs. But, no. BTVS just had to be one of the first shows ever to depict a same-s*x relationship, and then kill off one member of the coupling as soon as they found happiness. One thing I disagree with you on, though, is that Warren is an unrealistic villain who needed more backstory. I think he's probably the most realistic villain the show has ever had. He was an incel before that term was invented. He was Elliot Roger before Elliot Roger made the incel ideology famous by writing a misogynistic manifesto about how women are only good for s*x and deserve to die for not giving him any, right before going on a murderous rampage. Warren was just a pathetic misogynist who genuinely believed he was owed women, money and power, and turned into a lunatic when he didn't get it by just being himself without the magic and the gadgets (he did have a gf at one point, ofc, but she wasn't the mindless s*xbot he wanted; even though at one point in the show he says that her disagreeableness attracted him to her, I think it's clear that it attracted him only because he wanted to tame her, and he felt dissatisfied and built a robot when he couldn't). Buffy represents everything he is a against: women with strength and purpose beyond being the s*x robots he believes they ought to be. Anyway. In conclusion: I feel your rage. I do still think it's worth trying to put the anger and "don't care" attitude aside for the final 3 eps, though, so that you can give them the attention they deserve and give them a proper rating. They are some of the best episodes of the season. EDIT: actually, I wanna add that, apart from Warren, I hate Jonathan the most out of the Trio...he knows Buffy, she has saved him before, he presented her with the Class Protector award...and still he does this. He doesn't seem to learn. Even in season 4, he used magic to make himself the centre of the universe and in that universe he "slept" with (r*ped) 2 women who were quite literally under his spell. He was also fine with what Warren was doing to Katrina, until Katrina literally spelled out to him that it was r*pe. Andrew, at least, likely wasn't that interested in assaulting Katrina (he's heavily gay-coded) - he just wanted to appear "cool" for Warren. That doesn't excuse him, but it def is less despicable than genuinely desiring to "have a turn" on an out-of-it woman.
cs
2021-07-21 05:36:50 +0000 UTCI am still Team Spuffy.
Calvin Allen
2021-07-21 04:43:01 +0000 UTCI just find it funny how Seeing Red is the only episode that he DIDN'T bother to include a poll? He said fuck this shit! I DON'T CARE! LMAO 🤣🤣🤣🤣 We feel you, Steven, believe us. It still stings 20 years later.
Marshall Dante Robertson
2021-07-21 01:37:18 +0000 UTCAgree they can’t love, without empathy, a soul, a consience, what is left is possessivness, belonging, lust and want.
Mariella Nilsson
2021-07-21 01:28:06 +0000 UTCMost reactors forget the blond one's name... Agreed. Warren Mears is the worst.
Collete L
2021-07-21 00:47:25 +0000 UTCSees that there is a reaction to Seeing Red, prepares for pain. I’d say for sure the most infamous episode of the series. I won’t defend Spike but I think one thing that you might be missing with Spike/Buffy is that their relationship has always been built on violence. And their sexual habits have always had the sex and violence intertwined. The first time that they sleep together starts with they punching each other and is so violent that the whole house fell down around them. In the past when Spike would start something sexual with him, Buffy would usually protest at first and then give in. They really did set it up by showing many times where spike was the aggressor, Buffy would say no, Spike would push a little harder and then Buffy would give in. I think on first viewing it feels very like WTF based on the way it was shot. It’s uncomfortable and it’s supposed to be uncomfortable. But if you step back and look at all of their sexual encounters leading up to this, they all include some form of violence, Buffy protesting at first and then giving in. So this time, in Spikes mind this isn’t any different. The violence and Buffy protesting isn’t much different than in the past and in his mind if he pushed a little bit more he thinks she will give in like she has in the past. As for the Tara thing, I think once you see the last couple episode that it also makes a lot of sense and you can tell that the season has really lead to what is about to happen but I won’t discuss that until afterward. The ending of this episode is very jarring and shocking. I can see how in the moment you feel the way you do. I didn’t really like this season much on my first watch but have really grown to appreciate it on rewatches. Pretty much all the major storyline all season have really lead to what happened in this episode and what happens in the last couple of episodes.
Ray D
2021-07-20 15:56:06 +0000 UTCAs far as I can remember, this is the first "bad guy" to try to shoot buffy since Darla. I guess the cops took a few shots at her in the Season 2 finale. As for Warren, yes, he is awful. He's kind of an exaggerated, over the top version of a believably awful person, though. He's not a cool bad guy like Spike or Angelus, or in any way worthy of your respect or awe like a God or a superhuman construct. He just sucks, in the way some human beings suck - turned up to 11, in this case. As for Spike, I'm firmly in the "Vampires can't love" camp. Angel-S3-Darla was right. They might be able to convince themselves otherwise, but it's not love.
J.D.
2021-07-20 14:57:47 +0000 UTCIt was alluded to Spike raping in the past in Lovers Walk. Willow gets nervous around him when he says he "hasn't had a woman in weeks... well unless you count that shopkeeper" which, if he were talking about just killing/biting, why wouldn't he count the shopkeeper? Willow then gets extremely uncomfortable and tells him that there will be no "having of any kind" with her. They also play his attack on Willow in The Initiative as if it's a campus sexual assault. So it's always been in the mix.
tvaddict
2021-07-20 14:44:38 +0000 UTCFINALLYTY
colton
2021-07-20 11:33:41 +0000 UTCThanks for this, Terri. It pretty much says what I wanted to say too. I just wanted to add, about Warren, I think one of the frustrations is that Buffy hadn't dealt with the trio before now.... One of the factors is obviously Buffy's depression, Willow's 'addiction' and break up - life stuff. But another is certainly that they underestimated the kind of damage the trio could do - precisely because they were dumb, trash, pathetic, weak, losers. The thing is, when women voice concerns about men like these, they're quite often gaslit- they're told these boys/men are so pathetic they can't possibly pose a real threat. But we know a weapon makes anyone, no matter how physically inept or dumb, a danger. (Actually, Buffy has been shot at before- Darla season 1, at least). All one of these men has to do is grab a kitchen knife, their car, or a gun, and they can do a lot of damage. Given that incels commit violent atrocities fairly regularly now, even though this show was made before this kind of belief system/way of thinking had been named, I think it's really important to hold this ideology (and it's consequences) up to the light. This season did that spectacularly well. It's interesting that the Watcher's Council, because of their resources and infrastructure actually did have alternatives to killing humans who've dabbled with the supernatural in an unethical or irresponsible way. Buffy would have had access to them if she hadn't left. But of course she had to leave - their patronising and patriarchal bullshit meant she had to. So their misogyny isolated her from the resources that could have helped her tackle Warren's rapey incel shit before now. Ugh.
Briony Addey
2021-07-20 11:16:38 +0000 UTCI agree. I don't know how they would have got to where they needed to go without Spike hitting rock bottom. Hurting Buffy like this is his rock bottom, so I get the choice.
Terri
2021-07-20 10:00:01 +0000 UTC100% agree
Mariella Nilsson
2021-07-20 08:58:14 +0000 UTCAlso, this episode is why Warren is my second most hated character(the first being Andrew, but more on that later) That scene where Willow gets sprayed with Tara's blood breaks my heart every time. I feel like there wasn't a single person who wasn't pissed at the show for Tara. Like, I was heartbroken for a while after that, although next few episodes almost make it worth it.
charmed_olive
2021-07-20 08:52:35 +0000 UTCMaybe it's an unpopular opinion, but Spike hurting Buffy scene is kind of essential for the development of the future plot. This was his rock bottom, if you will, where he snaps and his evilness and his monster takes over. Don't want to say too much to not spoil anything, but I kind of understand the choice. Was it hard to watch? Of course, it is. Could that have been done better from the directing side? YES. (There is much going on in the male gaze and unnecessery visual violence towards women department). Though I do appreciate the superb acting by both Sarah and James there. What I am trying to say, is that was a huge turning point for Spike's character arc. I did hate it the first time I watched it, but having seen the entire show, I do understand why it might have been needed to take Spike's story where they wanted to take it. I feel like I'm too vague, but I'm trying very hard for "no spoilers".
charmed_olive
2021-07-20 08:46:57 +0000 UTCSo...several things: 1. The thing with the trio is they are supposed to be geeks, but stupid ones. Sort of like if the guys from the Big Bang Theory wanted to be evil and were dumb. That's why they always have the comic book stuff. That's why they made the rocket launchers in this episode...because that's a geek thing. 2. Everyone was angry about Tara being shot here. However, it's kind of a natural part of the story line for Warren to use a gun. He's a human and with his personality type and background it isn't surprising that he turned to using the gun at the end. We see this in real life a lot with mass shooters. Tara and Buffy getting hit can happen in real life. After all the monsters, a literal God and everything else Buffy has battled...in the end...it's a gun that drops her. Kind of interesting imo. Very realistic. They also needed this to happen as a catalyst for what happens next in the series. Honestly there probably was no other way to get to the end point for this season than go this direction. Fans still hate it to this day...I do too...but writing-wise...it's where they needed to go. 3. Spike can love. They've established it several times throughout the series with many vamps commenting on it. They can love without a soul. Dru and Spike for example. Spike can love the people in his life. As a viewer, we are supposed to accept that Spike really did love Buffy this whole time. 4. Agreed about the rape scene. It was out of character. However, they needed some sort of catalyst with his character to make something happen with him later. They use the fact that he feels so trash about what he nearly did to her that he does what he does next. It was a lazy way of getting Spike to a certain point, which I think could have been done better. However, they also wanted to drive Buffy further away from him, so this is what they went with. I don't think it fits well with his character and I don't think he would have went there. 5. Seeing Red is because of Willow's eyes at the end of the episode. 6. Buffy doesn't kill humans. Ever. That's sort of her thing. Remember what happened to Faith after she killed a human? It's kind of against slayer code. If anything...she would have turned them over to the cops. However, that's another good point to make. You said you were mad because these guys should have been stopped earlier. They were a bit annoying, but Buffy never really saw them as a serious threat. Probably not until they did the thing with Katrina's (Warren's ex) body. That's another thing about life. Sometimes it's the things that you think are not really a threat...that can be the worst. Of all the villains throughout the seasons...maybe Warren (a human) did the most damage. All along even you were saying that the trio was stupid yet they were the most dangerous in the end. This is by far not my favorite season, but I get it and can appreciate it for what it is. It also might help once you have perspective of the entire series.
Terri
2021-07-20 08:23:34 +0000 UTCIn response to the whole, "Has there been any indication that Spike rapes up to this point?" I feel like the show pretty consistently alludes to the fact that Vampires sometimes rape their victims and Spike is no exception to that. Even post-chip Spike who is(comparably) better behaved than earlier seasons, still had several instances this season where Buffy straight up tells him "No," or "Stop," but he just kept pushing. The only difference is that in those instances Buffy eventually relented so it was played as "consensual." Did we need to see an explicit "Spike tries to rape Buffy," scene? Probably not. Was it 100% in character for Spike to try to rape Buffy, especially when she had started to consistently shut him down? I'd say yes.
Second_Strike
2021-07-20 08:17:44 +0000 UTCI could predict what your reaction to this episode would be. It's a tough one. And one that not many Buffy fans enjoy watching. But I will say Spike attempting to rape Buffy is the hardest scene to watch in the whole show. It makes sense because as you said he is still a monster and, hell, people with souls rape other people every damn day. But it's never going to be something I want to see.
Harriet Loughnan
2021-07-20 07:14:19 +0000 UTCYour anger at what happened to Tara is not only understandable and to be expected, but it echoes pretty much the same anger that we all felt upon seeing this episode the first time. But I hear you repeatedly saying in your reaction that you wish Buffy would have killed Warren before he ever had a chance to do what he did here. That shows you have forgotten who Buffy herself is. She doesn't kill humans. But I agree with you on how this episode definitely went pretty dark with the rape theme being as prevalent in this episode as it is.
Fuiono Ching Sung
2021-07-20 06:04:45 +0000 UTCBuffy was never going to kill Warren unless he put her in the position where she had no other option! He's human, she doesn't kill humans, he's not even a supernatural human like Faith, he's just human 🤷♀️
CeNedra
2021-07-20 05:34:29 +0000 UTCI think your reaction to a character like Warren doing what he did to a character like Tara is universal and intended by the writers. The hate, the anger, the dismissal of the rest of the season, etc That this band of losers got this far and their leader did what he did at the end of this episode, it definitely - overall - feels like a betrayal on numerous counts. And I think that's exactly how we're supposed to feel as viewers - betrayed.
Shayne-Ark
2021-07-20 05:22:30 +0000 UTCSpike is still evil,but because of the chip, his only chance of belonging to a group is the Scooby gang, that is why he changed on the surfus, and started caring for dawn, she is apart of his group now.. Spike has always needed to belong with someone or a group, so he tries to act in a way to fit in.
Mariella Nilsson
2021-07-20 05:21:54 +0000 UTCI can say that I hope the next few episodes will get you pass this one. Your afterthoughts on this episode was 💯 point on especially when you mentioned how Warren was going to rape Katrina (with the other two nutcase followers Andrew & Jonathan) and how we saw that with Spike with Buffy as well. Too much rapey writing this season! We needed more Anya I agree and then we have to have Tara shot… what a tough episode to watch.
Tia
2021-07-20 04:49:02 +0000 UTCDammit, I was about to go to sleep.. it's 5.46 in the UK 🤷♀️ who needs sleep anyway 😂
CeNedra
2021-07-20 04:46:50 +0000 UTCHopefully, you like the next episodes
saydez w
2021-07-20 04:45:51 +0000 UTCYou need to rewatch the credits. You missed another clue about Tara. I believe the title is quite literal at the end with Willow's eyes turning red. Yeah I've never been a Xander fan, he can't love Anya because he's still just that little boy from high school obsessed with Buffy. He's so annoying and always treats Anya poorly. As Drusila said "vampires can love quite well, if not wisely". Fun fact: the actors that played Tara and Warren dated for 9 years irl
Corey
2021-07-20 04:43:04 +0000 UTCPretty sure it's called seeing red coz of willows eyes at the end. Also James masters was so disgusted with having to play that rape scene he broke down in tears after they filmed it and now has it written into contracts that he will never do a scene like that again.
Stacey
2021-07-20 04:22:40 +0000 UTCI will be on discord for discussions https://discord.gg/DX2WdC7A
Steven Merced
2021-07-20 04:16:33 +0000 UTCFast-forwarded to the end to see your after thoughts and I 100% agree with you that this episode is trash. I'm sure some of the people rushing you to watch this episode are going to be disappointed to see that you really didn't like it lol. I'm not a fan either and find it massively overrated. Shock value doesn't always equal good storytelling.
cil
2021-07-20 03:52:28 +0000 UTCOof, here we go. I am not prepared for this, dude.
AllieDoh
2021-07-20 03:40:45 +0000 UTCoof this episode. that ending.
Daniel R
2021-07-20 03:39:40 +0000 UTCOmg I'm so excited. I'm gonna wait for the next few eps though so I can binge watch your reactions to the rest of season 6. SELF CONTROL DON'T FAIL ME NOW!!
Nyssa Rawther 🍉
2021-07-20 03:39:25 +0000 UTC
