Hinge Points S2E1: Dog-gone-erland
Added 2022-11-17 16:01:03 +0000 UTCHinge Points is back for a new season, baby! This first ep is free, but expect new episodes for the next 5 Thursdays, only at patreon.com/chapotraphouse.
Matt and Danny Bessner (from American Prestige) invite Chris to discuss the question: What if Doggerland (the area of land between Britain and France) was never filled in with water?
Comments
This is the most fun hinge episode so far but at the same time this is such a massive difference that all the events over the last 5-10 thousand years are changed that it feels impossible to say anything. Like pre Roman metal age Europe is transformed. Not to rain on a years old parade.
Camden
2023-07-03 02:15:28 +0000 UTCThese dudes have a super shaky understanding of medieval history.
Clammy_Damp
2023-01-02 22:26:15 +0000 UTCthis is why David Harvey is such a good read on Marx, because he was talking about the relationship between geography and economics in a Marxist context for a long time, or at least he's the only one i know of who has connected those things in a marxist lens.
Doug Cartel
2022-12-21 15:14:48 +0000 UTCI just wanted to state how much I love these Hinge Point episodes. Hearing these historical counter factuals being discussed asks and answers a lot of the questions I often have, but don't know anyone knowledgeable enough to ask them of.
Garrick Bigwood
2022-12-01 14:03:30 +0000 UTCAnglo-Saxon England was a prosperous and sophisticated kingdom, it was not an isolated backwater
Angus Cairnie
2022-11-30 23:45:45 +0000 UTCDoggerland rules as a post roman dynasty for centuries until the mongols sweep the entire european continent
Wumbledorf
2022-11-25 15:37:45 +0000 UTCDog-Gone-Girl-land
Adrienne Suydam
2022-11-24 04:44:40 +0000 UTCI think you guys are underestimating scotland and ireland here because if the doggerland isnt under water, ireland would be significantly larger and possibly also connected to scotland wales or cornwall. Also the implications of this go even further back before roman rule because youd have the thriving mesolithic cultures of north eastern scotland probably never leaving. Although I understand this thought experiment assumes all is the same except the doggerland is at a higher elevation and the purpose is to understand how capitalism has to develop on the periphery with an imperial subject. Ireland would never have this, thus they would likely never develop capitalism. I could see scotland basically becoming the new england and doing the same thing they did, but i think that would require rome not stopping at hadrians wall and conquering scotland so they would be more different from their irish cousins
Brandon
2022-11-23 20:23:06 +0000 UTCI thought the UK _was_ Doggerland
Ijon Tichy
2022-11-23 14:50:07 +0000 UTCl get and appreciate the West-Wing-Ass opener you guys are going for, that said, GIMME MY ELECTROSWING BOP BACK!
Ijon Tichy
2022-11-23 14:45:55 +0000 UTCThey were obliged to decolonize their remaining colonies after 1949. Suriname became independent in 1975. Aruba left the Netherlands Antilles in 1986, and the N.A. itself was broken up on 10 Oct. 2010 (not that it improved life for regular working people...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Netherlands#Decolonisation
Yairo Martis
2022-11-23 11:43:46 +0000 UTCYeah and they tried to reorganize their empire into a sort United Dutch States but only Suriname and a few caribbean islands wanted in.
Savannakhet
2022-11-23 10:51:33 +0000 UTCDevastated to lose the opening theme between seasons
Sammi
2022-11-22 10:05:34 +0000 UTCseason one theme song slaps :/
soldiermighty
2022-11-21 19:15:56 +0000 UTCApparently they do a lot of precision tools and industrial supplies theses days, taking advantage of the leeway created by being surrounded by the EU but not in the Single Market or the Eurozone to invest in industry for market advantage, instead of just getting de-industrialised by an uncontrollable trade deficit with Germany.
Patrick Holt
2022-11-21 15:45:29 +0000 UTCMakes me want to play Civ
Benjamin Harris
2022-11-21 15:36:20 +0000 UTCA variable that becomes important is where the rivers Thames, Somme, Seine and Rhine go, in terms of creating natural state boundaries and bountiful estuaries. The assumption of a united north-western Europe seems like it depends on no serious natural frontiers. With the greater land area before those rivers could find the sea, they would become bigger and deeper and their rich estuaries and flood plains bigger. The idea that there would be no inter-state competition to produce the Rennaissance military revolution and colonialism is very questionable.
Patrick Holt
2022-11-21 15:31:31 +0000 UTCWhen did Vikings get over to Canada? It was hundreds of years before Spaniards landed in the Caribbean. What if the Vikings just made that trade network more concrete and exchanged weapons and antibodies over a century or two?
BabuFrick
2022-11-21 05:45:48 +0000 UTCEh, good enough for a podcast. They're not going to publish to an academic journal or write a book
William
2022-11-20 19:55:52 +0000 UTCClocks and chocolate? The Dutch? You really lose credibility when you get your cultural caricatures mixed up like that. Wooden shoes and windmills; the Swiss do clocks and chocolate.
Marc Likens
2022-11-20 01:10:32 +0000 UTCYea “go outside” is a real substantive critique.
NYCM&AHole
2022-11-19 22:34:46 +0000 UTCBoys, feels like we're over fitting the model on this one. Smarter people have determined that proto capitalism has its roots in Venice, moving to Genoa, then to the Dutch. Sure, England was next, but re roll the dice and it could be France. Not sure there's much more to it than that. Even the magna Carta wasn't that unique - I think the Hungarian nobles forced their king into something similar
William
2022-11-19 22:13:04 +0000 UTCLol nothing's funnier than seeing someone critique another for being "fragile" then get mad when they are critiqued
William
2022-11-19 22:04:32 +0000 UTCBring back the theme song!
Greg
2022-11-19 18:46:12 +0000 UTCYes! YES!!
Maddy B
2022-11-19 10:53:49 +0000 UTCsomebody's gonna come along and find some weird reason to bitch about this because it doesn't include their pet event, but you should ignore them because this is really fun & cool & catchy, good job
Jon Lyons
2022-11-19 05:33:16 +0000 UTCVery fun, enjoyable discussion
David Andrews
2022-11-19 05:11:31 +0000 UTCfill my doggerland
Hayley
2022-11-19 04:30:33 +0000 UTC[This is a safe link, I can't control if it plays ads] I told a robot to make thing relating to this. https://rave.dj/XLOLq7pDP1-tpA
Gumbo Pie
2022-11-19 04:17:02 +0000 UTCarcheologist go on hingepoints
Hayley
2022-11-19 03:09:30 +0000 UTCI miss the season 1 intro song. There's nothing else like it.
Mr. Dalliard
2022-11-19 00:32:38 +0000 UTCYou guys make the assumption that the Romans would have had an easier time absorbing Britain, I’m not sure that is true historically they couldn’t Conquer the entire land mass as it was and there was a 100 year gap between the gallic wars and the successful conquest of Britain, its relative isolation and small size meant that it could wait till one or other Emperor wanted a strait forward war of choice. Expand the territory and connect it to the mainland all of a sudden Britian is much more comparable to Germany.
Maggie+Al
2022-11-19 00:16:31 +0000 UTCMINGE POINTS, INNIT MATE?
skrrt vonnegut
2022-11-19 00:14:21 +0000 UTCYEEEEEEAAAAAAG BAAAABBYYYY NOTHER’ HISTORY SERIES EP
Carter Drake
2022-11-18 23:19:53 +0000 UTCBoats and hos
Dan
2022-11-18 22:35:03 +0000 UTCProduced by Prestige Worldwide
Naked Shitter
2022-11-18 22:28:10 +0000 UTCDevastated by the loss of the theme song
Tim O'Connor
2022-11-18 22:11:18 +0000 UTCI strongly think this hingepoint requires a discussion with archaeologists, particularly ones who study economics and geography of complex societies. The hosts don't really discuss anything before recorded history, whereas archaeological and genomic research of prehistoric Europe is slowly elucidating the story of successive migrations and conquests. Their timeline of <8000 ybp even predates the Indo-European migrations of the Western Steppe Herders reached western and southern Europe, and the subsequent cultural formation of what we call Germanic and Celtic cultures. What if they had the whole of doggerland to expand to? What are the alternate climatic regimes and the resulting agricultural implications of that doggerland existing through those times? There is a lot of data there and even though it's not recorded in writing I think you could still speculate for the purposes of this exercise. As an archaeologist I wish they would've discussed something like this! Still great insights on what you did cover though and one of the best podcasts out there.
Boaz Corey
2022-11-18 20:25:32 +0000 UTCChristine Desan in "Making Money" talks about how being an island allowed England to have a much stronger and stable taxation system compared to most governments on the continent. This was crucial for its monetary system and the creation for the Bank of England. Book is a good read and also touches on Calvinism's contribution to capitalist thought (interest bearing loans aren't immoral!).
Simon
2022-11-18 19:00:52 +0000 UTCSeems like capitalism not developing or developing more slowly in Europe could have also resulted in it having a chance to develop in Asia instead. Like, you get some Black Death level shock in China or India, which probably would have happened eventually, and then Japan/Korea or the Straits of Malacca or somewhere like that becomes your analogue to Britain/Ireland.
Sam Burton
2022-11-18 17:06:55 +0000 UTCUh, bring back the old song tho amirite…what I love about comments is that this downward dogger ep was a questionable mental jog/jag from jump that has nevertheless reinforced feelings of omniscience for many. Cower in fear, Danny, for here is the reason people have not achieved subject object status in history lol. They’re morons.
John
2022-11-18 15:00:10 +0000 UTCI’ll bite. Hayley and John are being good natured and quite right here. I’m a little surprised Danny didn’t bring up the hubristic lunacy of conceiving proto history as a terra nullius for the written word. This is why starting with Rome is a knee slapper. We’re not talking about a 500 BC historical counter factual starting with Heraclitus. We’re talking about a 5000 BC GEOGRAPHICAL counter factual starting with God only knows.
John
2022-11-18 14:43:03 +0000 UTCI think we all know he’s talking about the hegemonic driver’s seat and not the administration of dregs…
John
2022-11-18 14:39:00 +0000 UTCGenocidal? Stfu
Joe Bowden
2022-11-18 13:07:49 +0000 UTCThis series should be renamed “the years of rice and salt audiobook”
T
2022-11-18 09:22:36 +0000 UTCMC referring to capitalism as a biological system… *Chefs Kiss*
Joe
2022-11-18 08:05:52 +0000 UTCPOGGERSLAND
skrrt vonnegut
2022-11-18 06:33:49 +0000 UTCIs this sarcasm have u not seen any of the other hinge points lol? Id say in the first season he certainly kept matt on some rails where his rants could make a clear point more easily.
Brandon
2022-11-18 05:56:24 +0000 UTCOk but what are the implications of this universe on games workshop?
theunderwolf
2022-11-18 04:43:49 +0000 UTCThis boessner guy sucks, get ‘em out of here
Gorgeousgeorge
2022-11-18 04:29:04 +0000 UTCI get what u guys were going for here to drive home the point capitalism needed to be developed on a safe, separate, strong island with an imperial subject neighbor, but i feel like you overlooked the people that would live in the doggerland a bit. Like that was where humans were in that time when it flooded. The other places were too damn cold! This massive land connecting england to germany, netherlands, and possibly france could have been a powerhouse. Particularly in the late mesolithic era, not sure it wouldn’t have been flooded by now by rising sea levels absent that tsunami, but im willing to suspend disbelief for the overall points you guys made here
Brandon
2022-11-18 04:23:21 +0000 UTCI had no concept of the size of Doggerland listening to this podcast. But yeah, seeing the Wikipedia mock-up—that’s a lot of land! Is there any way London would exist in this scenario?
Mike Mariano
2022-11-18 03:02:33 +0000 UTC+1 to your theory of enlightenment never happening in this realm. As Graeber said without the influence of Native American dialogue the enlightenment and liberalism in general wouldn’t have occurred in Europe
Zak DeLange
2022-11-18 02:30:51 +0000 UTCWe need a Caleb check-in ( if it's funny).
Dan
2022-11-18 02:27:26 +0000 UTCClocks and Chocolate are more associated with Switzerland/Germany. Dutch stereotypes are Tulips, Bicycles, windmills, wooden shoes.
Dan
2022-11-18 02:25:26 +0000 UTCOk banderaboy
NYCM&AHole
2022-11-18 01:19:38 +0000 UTCGo outside
J. A.
2022-11-18 01:11:01 +0000 UTC“Papa. I will get a gun” - Caleb.
Nolan
2022-11-18 00:01:16 +0000 UTCI like where your head’s at. While both have different objectives; Matt trying to make sense of our current world to understand where we’re headed vs Graham trying to find out where we came from and our secret past, count me in.
Peter Sullivan
2022-11-17 23:59:26 +0000 UTCWhat if I had a penis, inside of my ass?
Joseph Mabrey
2022-11-17 23:41:53 +0000 UTCI miss the song!
Steve D
2022-11-17 23:33:41 +0000 UTCWhat specifically are your critiques
Dick Wolf
2022-11-17 23:20:59 +0000 UTCWhat if we went dogging, in the Doggerland?
Dick Wolf
2022-11-17 23:17:04 +0000 UTCIreland would never develop cringe capitalism 🇮🇪 🇮🇪 🇮🇪 its in our genes to lose and be patsies of european hegemony
Brandon
2022-11-17 23:11:24 +0000 UTCWhat I propose to do in this podcast comment per se, about the actual podcast writ-large, relates to what I feel is something that is probably the most salient thing I feel about the pod cast , is that
Arthur G. Pym
2022-11-17 22:59:28 +0000 UTCPlus they are totally ignoring the question of what would happen if the Borg had not developed Warp technology. (Would they just keep assimilating themselves?) Kidding aside, good fun & smart guy talk is worth the time. As a non-historian, I find the informed speculation, even if it is fanciful BS, useful and interesting. It highlights a lot of history and historical factors that help understand the actual reality & history we have & have seen.
Brendan Costello
2022-11-17 22:49:48 +0000 UTCMix in som roux and you gotta gumbo goin'....
Brendan Costello
2022-11-17 22:40:14 +0000 UTCfor the non-professional, history is whatever half remembered facts come to your lips when you talk about it
Hayley
2022-11-17 22:33:19 +0000 UTCi would love a Matt Christman discussion with Graham Hancock
Hayley
2022-11-17 22:30:54 +0000 UTCAs a content enjoyer but also a professional historian person, I feel that it is important to say two things: this is good fun, and riddled with total bullshit. Big hearts to Danny, Matt, and Chris, but whoa.
John Harwood
2022-11-17 22:12:00 +0000 UTC"What if the buffalo killed us?" THAT is a compelling question...
Brendan Costello
2022-11-17 21:54:24 +0000 UTCIs that the band of brothers theme??
Matthew Silverman
2022-11-17 21:51:27 +0000 UTC“A nod’s as good as a wink to a blind bat!”
Monserrat Blaster
2022-11-17 21:40:12 +0000 UTC“I bet she does, I bet she does”
Monserrat Blaster
2022-11-17 21:38:21 +0000 UTCHINGE POINTS hinge points hinge points
aida beats
2022-11-17 20:44:15 +0000 UTCReady to binge some hinge
Ozzie
2022-11-17 20:34:32 +0000 UTCbring back the theme music
Kamran Husain
2022-11-17 19:52:06 +0000 UTCChris the channel is about 15 miles at its shortest, not 500 feet lol
Joe Bowden
2022-11-17 19:44:24 +0000 UTCThey sure did!
Peter Sullivan
2022-11-17 19:39:24 +0000 UTCAnd, for a call back. Didn't the Celts love their peat moss?
Gumbo Pie
2022-11-17 19:38:03 +0000 UTCTerra Preta Black Soil in the Amazon is probably one of the most important discoveries as well. It shows that it is most likely human derived fertilizer that is over 10,000 years old, and also in such a remote location away from the origins of human evolution. It's an area I believe thats called a "nutrient desert" since all the plants and fawna zap the soil, so it was a necessary invention there. Not to mention too that said relic soil is being scorched earth right now in the Amazon. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta
Gumbo Pie
2022-11-17 19:33:20 +0000 UTCwe need UnHinged points
Justin Roll
2022-11-17 19:13:05 +0000 UTCFair enough, compadre. In that case thank you for furthering the cause. I’m sure you’re also aware of countless other examples of potentially ancient civilizations spanning from Indonesia to Peru to Turkey. So yeah, needless to say I think we have the Hinge boiz beat on this one.
Peter Sullivan
2022-11-17 19:07:36 +0000 UTCOh it's not, I'm wholeheartedly agreeing. I just talk like that. Meant the figurative "you".
Gumbo Pie
2022-11-17 19:05:03 +0000 UTCMatt's a little wrong there. The Dutch also lost their colonial empire somewhat recently. 1945-1949 after Indonesia declared independence.
Yairo Martis
2022-11-17 19:02:17 +0000 UTCHow is this opposed to my statement? I’m saying these civilizations likely did exist, so without the great flood, they would’ve still been around.
Peter Sullivan
2022-11-17 18:58:56 +0000 UTCThat is if you hold to the notion that civilization is only 8,000 years old. New discoveries across the world are challenging that. Who knows, there is an apparent pyramid in Bosnia (thought to be) and a sunken city off of Cuba (near proven fact), why not relics underneath the English Channel as well?
Gumbo Pie
2022-11-17 18:57:33 +0000 UTCI prefer my points hinged.
John Swan
2022-11-17 18:55:15 +0000 UTCGQ piece=hinge point
David
2022-11-17 18:27:28 +0000 UTCWhat you gotta do is tack on the old, unhinged intro song to the end of the new, more focused intro and just have a long, perfect intro. Best of both worlds, baby
ScottB
2022-11-17 17:57:00 +0000 UTCIf we didn’t have the melting of the ice caps / end of the last ice age (and subsequently maintaining the land bridge between England and mainland Europe) then we’d still have Atlantis and all the technologically advanced societies that were drowned by the Great Flood. So all of this would be taken care of and there’d be no feudalism-capitalism.
Peter Sullivan
2022-11-17 17:50:03 +0000 UTCThe Romans conquered England and Wales!!!
Joe Bowden
2022-11-17 17:49:31 +0000 UTCI don’t get why it’s so difficult
Joe Bowden
2022-11-17 17:43:15 +0000 UTCNot looking forward after the first few minutes of explaining how ‘England’ is a separated island etc. THAR FOOKIN ISLANDS CALLED BRITIN INIT
Joe Bowden
2022-11-17 17:41:31 +0000 UTCWhat if the ottoman’s had lightsabers
Ben
2022-11-17 17:39:31 +0000 UTCThe intro omg
Ben
2022-11-17 17:39:19 +0000 UTCFuck you! Bring back my silly intro music!
Isaac Jones
2022-11-17 17:19:03 +0000 UTChell motha fuckin yeah
dan
2022-11-17 16:49:27 +0000 UTCThe more obscure the better! Bring it on! Can’t wait for that 30 years joint to drop
Patrick Burke
2022-11-17 16:49:17 +0000 UTCHinge date
MC Prescott
2022-11-17 16:46:57 +0000 UTCAnd this is why Ireland has no snakes, not because of some genocidal "saint".
Gumbo Pie
2022-11-17 16:33:11 +0000 UTCAs soon as this episode appeared in my feed it got stuck in my head. I will forever be haunted by that old timey piano.
Mike Mariano
2022-11-17 16:28:52 +0000 UTCSea level rise was overdetermined
The Fine Art Revolution
2022-11-17 16:27:07 +0000 UTCI still believe the reign of the regime of the coffee house fag was western Luxembourg's only shot at proto-Moaism
justDave
2022-11-17 16:25:34 +0000 UTCWrong Donald Trump GIFfrom Wrong GIFs
Ryan W
2022-11-17 16:17:16 +0000 UTCdisplay name love <3
Jonathan G
2022-11-17 16:16:02 +0000 UTCLol dummy Bessner is back to shill for nato on this podcast like he did on American prestige. He’s too fragile to be criticized (he’ll even ban you from the patreon if you call him out for his whitewashing)
NYCM&AHole
2022-11-17 16:15:44 +0000 UTCDid you run out of obscure leftist movments from 1903 Lithuania to discuss
Saying Monty Python Quotes In Lieu of Conversation
2022-11-17 16:12:30 +0000 UTCWait where's the good theme song?
Blake
2022-11-17 16:11:54 +0000 UTCSucks that Dan Bessner is too annoying to tolerate for an hour
T. S.
2022-11-17 16:11:30 +0000 UTCYOOOO
brodie
2022-11-17 16:11:25 +0000 UTCHinge! Hinge! Hinge!
Ryan W
2022-11-17 16:11:15 +0000 UTCLet's goooo
Blake
2022-11-17 16:11:01 +0000 UTCCringe points
S Agsar
2022-11-17 16:10:39 +0000 UTCfrance would just be a bit bigger
etienne
2022-11-17 16:10:34 +0000 UTChiiiiinge
absoluteboi
2022-11-17 16:10:06 +0000 UTCYes! How sweet it is!
Matt James Rich
2022-11-17 16:09:40 +0000 UTC
