718 - The View feat. Norman Finkelstein (3/28/23)

Listening again!

Ennis

I'm just here to watch Josh get owned lmao

All he said was the 100% truth, that the nazis killed tons of Russians, and that Russia has faced hostility from the west of them for generations now. If you can't accept that simple fact and have to label it "nonsense" and an "eye rolling take" (again, just simple historical facts) Then you may have to face the fact that you're an idiot who hates Putin and Russia for purely US propaganda caused reasons.

James Edward Smith

His rambling about Putin was nonsense. Looks bad dude. Bad episode. Fuckin eye rolling take. Hot take: nato and Russia both bad

Nick Lawrence

Garbage. Israeli’s are never going to vote extinction

Norman Finkelstein is a fascinating guy. The assortment of background noises was hilarious though. “Money calling” lmao

Robby Gross

What really pissed me off here was that I know ppl irl EXACTLY like that knuckle rapping mother superior who get their asses beat up when they try to do any organizing because they try to slither into leadership roles or try to become the face of an organization. It's just self-aggrandizement and that's why it pisses people off.

calvin kilby

Well, there's an also an element to "rewriting books" that is nothing but a New Coke-style ploy to sell more of the unaltered originals. And I do think there is a tendency for some leftists to want to expel any idpol issues from leftism, viewing the concerns of racial and sexual minorities as "bourgeois", but I don't get that from Finkelstein.

Axel Herrera

What a brilliant episode. Norm is so precise and pertinent with his critique. We are all tired of the ridiculous emphasis on the aesthetics of structural change as opposed to structural change itself. The fact that these charlatans are supported by the Bezos of the world says all we need to know. I was literally laughing and snapping my fingers in agreement all through this. More of this Chapo!!! 👏🏽🙏🏾🫶🏽

Jordan Young

This thread is a perfect example of how Elon Musk can't finish destroying Twitter fast enough The school of online "leftists" who got introduced to the whole concept by Bernie Sanders and now spend all their time attempting to eject the Marxist old guard from the very movement they literally died to build in the 60s and 70s because they don't like the way old farts talk online

AKorgar

Norman Finkelstein is an old guard student Maoist who got canceled by the academic establishment for being too anti-Israeli, calling him conservative brained is in fact radlib shit. Feel free to disagree with him, feel free to go on for as long as you want about how you think he's full of shit or whatever, calling him conservative-brained is just fucking stupid and I don't care if you have gay or trans friends to use as a shield for that.

AKorgar

So, fake-idpol leftism, purely meant to admonish genuinely good left figures like Bernie, is really fucking bad. You'll hear no arguments from me on that one, fuck those people. I honestly don't really see the book rewriting as that big of a deal, it's like when conservatives complained about "cancel culture" because the owners of the Dr. Seuss intellectual property took a few books with racist caricature out of print. It's just freedom of expression, honestly, nothing's gonna take the previous versions of these books out of circulation, they're just being revised to create newer variations, stripped of problematic themes.

Hmm. Listening to that part again it seems pretty clear to me that he’s talking about performative idpol on the part of mainstream Democrats, the kind that helped undermine Bernie. In other words, no, I don’t think at all he would say that gays shouldn’t be allowed to marry or bemoan black people in movies (note the example he gives is rewriting books, something that literally no one supports and most people can agree is excessive). He’s absolutely right that people who oppose this nonsense often move right since all they know are Dems/libs and the right. Part of the whole reason I was drawn to Chapo and TrueAnon and this corner of politics is because I’m very much on the left but don’t buy into Kendi and that brand of idpol (and expressing this skepticism and criticism of idpol narratives drew right-wingers to me, thinking I was secretly one of them, it's annoying for sure). But I don’t think you need to assume the worst about his positions. I get that when you hear leftists say things that sound like what right wingers say it can be frustrating, esp. since I have seen the dirtbag left turn reactionary (the “Red Scare effect”), but I don’t get that from what he’s saying. There is a balance to be struck. It's just that most people criticizing what he's criticizing are on the right. It doesn't mean there can't be a valid leftist critique of idpol that doesn't take reactionary social positions. I haven’t read the book though, so maybe doing so will provide more explicit answers to your questions.

Axel Herrera

Why would I defend myself against someone's criticism I don't give a shit about? Why do you think you're owed an argument? Fuck off already

calvin kilby

Alright I'm done here. I'll close with. You're probably a smart guy so do some introspection as to why you leapt to the defense of a point you couldn't defend whatsoever.

Shut the fuck up, pedant.

calvin kilby

Yeah it just takes you repeated shallow adhoms and attacking some perceived rudeness on my part rather than addressing what I'm actually saying. I'll give you another shot. What about "woke culture" has "gone too far" and is what Norm is complaining about at the 1:18 minute mark? If this wasn't a class reductionist dog whistle, you should easily be able to answer this question in a single sentence.

Sorry it doesnt take me 30 paragraphs and 8 footnotes to express my attitude to you. And I'll reiterate it here too in case you needed a reminder; shut the fuck up you ultraleft scolding asshole. Your criticism of the fink is unaddressed because its very obviously coming from a place I have no interest to interrogate and this is genuinely beginning to smack of pride on your part so let it fuckin go.

calvin kilby

This coming from the guy who came into this conversation with "Shut the fuck up" and then 2 other posts that had absolutely nothing to say except protracted "Shut the fuck ups". I should hope even you can grasp the irony at play here.

Dying at Norm monologuing for 98% of the time and then roasting Matt and "this other guy" for not talking

Max

go ahead. keep screaming "Shut The Fuck Up " at me. it only makes my opinions Worse

calvin kilby

Yea dude. Norm hates the gays and the blacks. Nailed it bro. Good job buddy. Sit your goofy white ass down and listen. This thread is being decolonized! I'm seizing this thread in interest of reparations! Your cis worldview is not welcome in this space! My vagina is a penis! and it. Is. Screaming! LISTEEEEN.

K H

Yeah go ahead and pretend you heard me out when you make yet another post not addressing a single thing I've said. Go ahead and pretend you or anyone else here heard me out and found me disagreeable when you and I both know you uncritically rushed to defend your parasocial relationships.

This isn't a party meeting you fucking nerd. Idk what orgs youve been part of before but you're conducting yourself like an irate asshole who keeps bringing up the same issue at meetings wastin time to indulge yourself. If this really is the case, please self-criticize and shut your fucking mouth because you made your point

calvin kilby

Those are the ones he meant, you can stop posting now

J.P. McD.

I don't think anyone in this entire comment chain has ever made a serious attempt to answer the question I laid out at the start, of: What innocuous thing did Norman Finkelstein mean, when he said that "Woke culture has gone too far, and is alienating people". Bernie Sanders never says things like that, the Chapos, never say things like that. Saying "Woke Culture" without actually specifying what you mean, is in fact, a dog-whistle, because "woke" can mean anything from "Women aren't tolerating getting raped by their bosses anymore" to "There's too many blacks in movies".

You seem like the kind of gay guy who goes to a pride event, hears an older queer person refer to trans/gender nonconforming referring to trans ppl as "bisexuals, and then just using that as an excuse to go the fuck in on them when, if you've ever read Quentin Crisp, has nothing to do with bigotry and more to do with the fact that the construction of gay/queer identity occurred in an academic context and was incongruous with working class or subsistence laborers outside the control of the academy. I think your criticism is based on an uncharitable and frankly editorialized version of what Finkelstein was saying here and if you know anything about the guy through his lectures or works I think you'd be really hard-pressed to argue this guy is anything other than a nerd who doesn't subscribe to your own positions regarding economic/social justice. Also this is a cheap shit but man this isn't church so chill out on th sanctimonious better-ally-than-thou shit. It pisses people off who would otherwise be more receptive to criticism.

calvin kilby

You're telling me. I didn't honestly think what people said about the comment sections for Chapo Trap House being a bunch of edgy teens without real beliefs, but I just made a basic observation about a conservative-brained argument made by a guest and got ad-hommed by like 5 different people who think I insulted their parasocial buddies. The Chapos, for the record, actually have a pretty good record of not throwing left social issues under the bus in pursuit of left economic issues, but I thought it was apt to point out that their guest seemed to be doing precisely that.

You are delusional

Arthur G. Pym

I assure you, that my friends and family, many of whom are gay and trans, appreciate in our political discussions, my unwillingness to entertain arguments that the furthering of their rights, or the protection of their lives have "gone too far" in the interests of some class reductionist nonsense via dog-whistle. I am in fact, a rude, and arrogant asshole about my belief that gays and trans people are fully human and that their freedom and protection should ride in lockstep with any left-wing economic value I hold.

The sheer arrogance exuding from your posts is nauseating Joshua. I hope this is just a kind of character you assume when posting, for the sake of your loved ones.

Arthur G. Pym

This was a great episode for one that was pretty dry

Even if he had in fact said that, it would bring into question what exact social issue or matter of cultural representation he believes Wokeness has, in their conceit, foolishly taken up and thus heralded their own downfall.

Shut the fuck up

calvin kilby

maybe just pretend he said wokeness got too big for its britches instead

Banger of an episode 🙏🏻

If you agree with him, feel free to let me know where you think "Wokeness" has gone too far, and what specific social issues and media representation, you believe are getting in the way of class based analysis. This isn't splitting hairs, it's being suspicious of people who seem to be spouting class reductionist arguments.

believing it’s necessary to “call out” and question people’s true “leftist” credentials for “not speaking carefully about social issues” or whatever is probably a reasonable adjacent example of what he means

J.P. McD.

Didn't count on it. I will call out conservative brained nonsense and dogwhistling when I see it.

I don't think Norman Finkelstein will see this sry

https://youtu.be/TXPC2HXjrYU

Peacock Jive

Okay, I want to make this as clear as possible. He makes two entirely different points near the end of this video. -The point that there's identitarians one can describe as Woke, who use idpol cynically as a weapon against any sort of class politic (This begins at about 1:14:00) -Whoopi Goldberg (Rape apologist for roman polanski btw)'s denunciation of woke politics, and his personal belief that woke politics have "gone too far", and that there's no way to oppose them except by becoming a tucker carlson (This segment begins at about 1:18:30) On the first point, I entirely agree, there's a ton of cynical shitty fake leftists who see idpol as nothing but a weapon to use against economic, class based progressives. On the latter point, I have no idea what he means by "Gone too far", what part of the modern left social movement does he take onus with? He doesn't tell us he simply dogwhistles like a conservative and declares that they've crossed some kind of line.

think he made it pretty clear when he said something like, 'when it was on the line with bernie, they showed their true colors' ie 'he's weak on reparations'

I'm looking at the synopsis of this book, I'll Burn That Bridge When I Get To It, and it appears to be a book about the tactical deployment of identity politics to try and snuff out class politics. That's an entirely different issue, in the last 15 minutes of this episode he starts saying that woke culture is rewriting movies and books, and that there's nowhere to go to oppose it but the right.

He wrote a whole book about it, and you’re way off about what kind of guy Finkelstein is but I fully understand the knee-jerk reaction to anything like “anti-woke” rhetoric because of Fox News etc.

Arthur G. Pym

Oh boy, it's one of those """leftists""" who bitches and moans that "Wokeness has gone too far" but uses the term exactly like a conservative where they refuse to ever define it. Tell me Norman, what part of the modern social left angers you so? Protecting trans people? Gays being allowed to marry? Too many black people in movies? Don't be a coward and hide behind dogwhistles like a conservative, tell us.

Great ep!

David Lee

Great episode, don’t let the negative comments get you guys, Norm is truly a great and insightful guest.

Tyler Berglund

this was great don't agree with him on everything but the dude makes some excellent points and has a subtle funny old man way about it. I am now mad at Matt and Felix for not speaking though

Shake zula

“Obama Bohemian“ as a placeholde for some of the worst aesthetics imaginable

Besand

You know, maybe there were some parts that I didn't quite agree with, but I enjoyed it nonetheless. Thanks guys.

Colonel Flanders

Okay so is it a racist dog whistle if you're dog whistling that people are nazis?

Dang

According to his Wikipedia Finkelstein is wildly hot??

This was incredible! What a gift to listen to a politically active old school New York Jewish thinker go off. I love this shit!

Skinner

why do you guys want to work so hard. damn.

Rohmer Simpson

If you've noticed, no one on here who is in disagreement with you has said that you're a fox news watching desantis supporter because of your views on the Russian invasion of Ukraine, because that's an intellectually simple take, and a dishonest comparison that makes assumptions we can't confirm.

Philip P Deveney

Y'all realize that probably no one who listens to Chapo watches CNN, right? This isn't Twitter. It's not the 2020 dem primary. And we're not 60 year old "blue check mark libs" unable to hold a nuanced discussion about the complex nature of geopolitics and imperialism. You don't need to project that shit onto us. Honestly, y'all's logic is basically just "opposed to Ukrainian invasion=loves Nicholas Kristoff". Cars aren't bikes because they have wheels. Vegetarians aren't fascist because Hitler didn't eat meat. Putin isn't a good guy because the US government cynically criticizes him. And we're not supporters of US imperialism or the azov brigade for lamenting the needless deaths of thousands of Ukrainian civilians. That while thing about saying there are Nazis in the Ukrainian military is correct. None of us dispute that. Is it fucked up for Ukraine to forcibly conscript people? Yes. Did the recruitment by and sympathy for fascists in Ukraine increase dramatically because of Putin's decision to invade? Absolutely! He exacerbated the fucking problem. One of the Azov battalion members after the invasion stated as much when he said "first Russia, then Kyiv", implying that these monsters intended to utilize the increased armaments and military experience in overthrowing the Zelensky led Ukrainian government post war. The sheer amount of military aid being unquestioningly given to Ukraine, with no way of dictating who it's given to is indeed fucked up, and again, none of us are really suggesting it isn't. But, again, that wouldn't be where we are right now if Putin hadn't CHOSEN to invade. Material conditions exist yes, but within those material constraints there exists varying degrees of individual and collective agency for a variety of choices. Putin chose this option and it's a bad one. Yes I hate the us acting cynically, and not applying any where near the kind of criticism of Israel they give to Russia, or support to Palestine they give to Ukraine. But there are 2 actors here, not one. Russia and the US. Both suck and both make decisions they don't need to. Fuck! Quit trying to turn everyone who disagrees with you into a Rachel Maddow fan. We're not!

Philip P Deveney

This is fucking great. Maybe the uneducated riffing about Russia on Chapo will finally end as a bonus.

Evan C.

Gotta say, the fervent debatelord bullshit is a welcome reprieve from the “is Felix even trying!? So disappointed!” bullshit.

The wazzzzaaapp bud light dude

Loved Norm calling out Felix and Matt for not talking lol.

I love this guy

Aaron Snelling

"Pull up Wikipedia on Putin and look up childhood". You better believe Will pulled that shit up.

Crosley Querin

You should listen to the True Anon interview with Norm if you can, it's maybe even better

Peter T.

This is the first time I have listened twice to a podcast. It was simply wonderful.

Ellen Anderson

Came for the bad faith comments trying to tear down Finkelstein, was not disappointed. Ngl he rambled a lot here but I imagine he doesn’t get a lot of calls these days, not toeing the line on US policy and all. I’ve watched his debate with Dersch if you can call it a debate. Dersch is the skeeviest, most disingenuous POS you can imagine, was great seeing Norm wipe the floor with him. Free Palestine

Dan

It's an interview episode, so you know half the patreon comments are going to be red rose gritties bitching and whining. Anyway, great ep! Norm's a legend.

SF

Love it when you guys have old professors on to scream at you for an hour

Damian

Why do people keep on comparing Russia/Ukraine to Israel/Palestine? Does palestine get $50 billion, advanced weapons systems, formal training, and explicit backing of the most violent and powerful empire on earth? Wait, which entity in this scenario is more like Israel? Isn’t it Ukraine?

Sam

Fucking love Norm

Donald

“This guy is nuts! He’s turning history on its head. It’s Russia that invaded Ukraine.”

David Heslin

Honestly baffled by the comments complaining about Norm. I must be getting old but to me Norm is a towering legend of the left and a hero. I could listen to him all day. His books had a huge influence on my politics and a lot of other people’s too. He is rigorous, honest, courageous and incisive. This was a great ep

Arthur G. Pym

doesn't have luxury, and yet he owns a piano..

Jonathan G

Norman is an example of when your need to be annoying just outweighs your need to be correct.

Isaac Taylor

I genuinely think he's just listening

Isaac Jones

I like that Norman Finkelstein is like "why is no one is talking?"

James Blackmon

Really though- I get Felix staying quiet to not embarrass himself with his weak riffs, but why does Matt *never* talk during interviews? A combo of “can’t be bothered” with an attempt to recoup mana for his next Cushvlog?

Alex RoQ

Man, these comments are a drag, just absolute disrespect for the past and anyone who's lived through it.

Christopher Price

I agree with a lot of what Finklestein says about Russia, though I think you could equally apply that to the Ukrainian people who were exterminated in equal measure. The Ukrainians also have a history of invasion and I think you can talk as much as you like about Russia's proposed peace plans like Minsk II, but these are rarely proposed in good faith. I'm sure Putin is informed by his childhood, but so are the Ukrainians who are his age while many young Russians who no longer see a future for their country under Putin have left and want him gone as much as the West. I think it is true that many of these Europeans are acting without thought, but now that the war is here I see no reason to deny Ukraine the right to defend against an imperialist expansion that I'm sure reminds them of WWII

Adam Foster